Red tuning

[jplong]

K so i know its a while off till i get something like the Red. But I would like some opinions on this. Could i feasibly run the red to 30 psi on race gas with just the 3" GM mas conversion, ECU mods, And a AFC? granted ill have the supporting mods for it ie.. injectors, yadda, yadda. I am thinking that it is possible BUT is it practical? will i be able to tune it properly? will i be able to tune that much CFM with just those things? should i spend almost double that on the VPC/GCC? for that matter should i get a stand alone? obviously the answer is yeah but is it worth the $$$ or can i put the AFC/3"GM/modded ECU in the history books as 10 secs on car still running a MAS? would running a Green ease my ability to tune?
Cost effectiveness is the key here. Im by far a rich man so keep that in mind.

[Iwishiwascool]

you have to wonder why those kids who are in the 10s arent using the much cheaper alternative in the GM MAS.

Tried and true.

In fact, I havent heard of any kind of remarkable times resulting from the GM MAS.

[DQ Driver]

i consider the GM MAS setup the greatest money-making marketing scheme since buschur's 2.5" pressbent exhaust. A hacked 1g MAS will take you pretty far, bandaid it somemore and you have the trusted Blaha. When you start to overrun that, the 2g has proven to flow an awful lot without dropping counts. a MAS is still a MAS, this one just flows a bit more.

The vpc has shown gains and promise from the 14b all the way to bushur's tube chassis. It not only removes the restriction from the intake, it changes the whole monitoring/tuning system to speed density. They are two totally different animals and are often put in direct comparison.


masT- 200
gm mas -130
ecu mod-90
AFC - 300
--------------------
720

You can find VPC/GCC combo's for a little over the price of that setup. Another option is running the VPC/AFC combo for more adjustability all around, espcially the low table. However, this can eventually be a heacache, offering to many combitionations of adjustments. Just look how pretty these are all together though...

http://www.directedengineering.com/images/hksevcgccvpc1_med.jpg
The speed density system is tried and true for propelling DSM's down the track.


p.s.- i read all of this somewhere on the internet.. i think it was DSMtoonerz

[ucsigep]

since you already have it

no he can't. :) He doesn't already have it.

[DQ Driver]

he doesn't have an AFC?

[Mike C]

I second the VPC/AFC combo as suggested by MIKE. That would be the trusted route I would go if a standalone wasn't an option.

[DSM614]

im still trying to get over that lil laser running 12's on a 14b with a VPC...mmmmmm :p

[ucsigep]

he doesn't have an AFC?

nope.

[DQ Driver]

i guess he sold it.. i remember he had one ages ago

i'll update the pricing then

[ucsigep]

yeah, he sold it a while back.

[Mike C]

Boy, I wish I knew someone who had a VPC to let go for cheap :rolleyes :p

[OWNDJOO]

what exactly does a vpc do? i'm in the dark on the vpc/gcc thing. but i still think that goin with DSMLink would be my best bet.

[v8etr]

I second the VPC/AFC combo as suggested by MIKE. That would be the trusted route I would go if a standalone wasn't an option.

I would have to disagree. I run the VPC/AFC/TMO Eprom setup in my car. While I am happy with what it has done for me, for the same price I could have gotten the AEM EMS. The AEM is affordable and proven. With that you have so much greater control then you could ever get on any piggy-back setup like DSMLink or the VPC. If it comes to the best bang for your buck I would have to say it is the AEM. The GM MAF setup is ok too. It works well. But look at it this way, GM setup with converter is like $350-400, then you have an AFC for another $350. Already you are up to $700-750 and you still have the stock rev limiter and fuel cut with no timing or NOS control. I figure if you are halfway to an AEM, then you should just suck it up and get it instead of blowing your money on the GM stuff. With a Red you will definitely need to run past redline to be able to run it to it's potential. The timing control will also be a great help in spooling it up and keeping it under control at high boost. My pricing estimates might be a tad off since I haven't priced anything in a while. I figure they aren't too far off though.

[Mike C]

A burned chip/VPC/AFC combo can be had for under $1000 if you're patient. This is considerably less than an EMS especially when you factory in the speed density option and a UEGO wideband. You're now approaching the $2000 mark and thats assuming you are doing all of the tuning/learning curve yourself. I'm not disagreeing that the EMS is the way to go if money is no object, but the VPC/GCC or AFC combo is the next best thing, especially on a 1g. The key with the VPC tuning is getting support from tuners who have gone fast with it because most people don't know how to use the thing. Buschur went 7s on a VPC/GCC combo with 660s before they switched to an EMS. Extreme example, but anything is possible. I will not be sold on the GM MAS until I see some cars actually put down some respectable times with it. It is stupid that the VPC and GM MAS are suddenly getting compared to each other in all the forums since they operate on completely different principles. Of course there will be many fast cars with VPCs because its been on DSMs for over 10 years but the jury should still be out on the GM MAS IMO. I think the fastest car to date has only ran a high 11 on the GM MAS. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[jplong]

not that you guys are wrong but you can get the GM mas setup for $220 complete. minus the piping. (which would come with an intercooler) as far as raising the revlimit you can do that with a ecu mod. and add tunability with an AFC...again get one for $200way i see it is i could have that entire setup for $500 if i look around.
I do though have other options ie VPC/AFC.
I have also found haltechs for around $700 so if i really wanna save i could go that route.

[Mike C]

There have been some people that have done DSMlink on a 1g as well. Just another option to think about in the $700 range.

[v8etr]

A burned chip/VPC/AFC combo can be had for under $1000 if you're patient. This is considerably less than an EMS especially when you factory in the speed density option and a UEGO wideband.

I have been watching Ebay for a while for a used VPC and most of them sell for at least $700. Especially since HKS quit making them. TMO has quit doing anything lately so who knows about buying a chip or eprom ecu. Most eproms sell for $200-300 unsocketed. I did hear about a place called DSMChips or something that is supposed to be doing it now. I don't have any experience with them, but Kevin at AGPTurbo claims they are pretty good. The blue screen AFC's still cost $200 or more unless you find someone who is just dying to get rid of it. As far as the AEM unit goes, they used to sell for around $1300-1500 for the base setup. That came with a GM map sensor for the speed density. Of course if you want to add tuning mods like a wideband and AEM 5 bar map sensor then you will add to the price. That would be the case no matter what setup you run though. A wideband adds to the price if it is a GM setup or VPC setup also.

Pretty much my standpoint is if you are pinching pennies on fuel management, you should probably stick to a smaller turbo like a 16g or something. Bigger turbos like the RED and the standard T3/T4 or T4 combinations require a lot of work. If you can't afford the fuel management then you can't afford the repairs caused by not having it.

[Iwishiwascool]

last line is too true.

I work with DSMChips. So far so good even though its still experimental for the 2g.

[ucsigep]

TMO basically sold their business to someone, I can't remember who off the top of my head. A guy in Cinci/Dayton with a red has one of his chips, I think.